Sunak and Starmer clash over ambulance delays at PMQs

Sir Keir Starmer has accused Rishi Sunak of presiding over “lethal chaos” in the NHS as the two clashed over ambulance waiting times during PMQs.

The Labour leader said ambulances were supposed to respond to emergency calls in 18 minutes, but some people were waiting more than two and a half hours.

The PM said the NHS was dealing with the “unprecedented challenges” of Covid and a “very virulent” flu season.

He added that extra money from government would help reduce the waits.

The prime minister also attacked Sir Keir for opposing the government’s bill which would enforce minimum service levels during strike action including for ambulance staff, firefighters and railway workers.

“It’s absolutely right that people can rely on the emergency services when they need them,” he said.

“That’s why we are rapidly implementing measures to improve the delivery of ambulance times and, indeed, urgent and emergency care, but I’d say, if he cares about ensuring that patients get access to life-saving emergency care when they need it, why won’t he support our minimum safety legislation?”

The exchange came as the GMB union announced its ambulance staff would be striking on four new dates, including 6 February when nurses will also be taking industrial action.

The Labour leader accused Mr Sunak of avoiding answering his questions and noted that if someone in Plymouth suffering from chest pains had phoned 999 at the start of Prime Minister’s Questions at midday, the ambulance wouldn’t arrive until 14:40 GMT.

He said the prime minister should “stop blaming others” and apologise for the “for the lethal chaos under his watch”.

Data released by NHS England last week revealed a sharp deterioration in 999 response times in December, as well as record waits in accident and emergency departments.

The Royal College of Emergency Medicine believes 300 to 500 people a week could be dying because of the problems accessing emergency care.

The rhetorical battle to be seen as trustworthy custodians of the NHS was at the heart of this PMQs.

Sir Keir Starmer sought to crystallise the realities of a struggling NHS: the time it would take someone with a suspected heart attack to get an ambulance.

His examples were from across England; the prime minister pointed out he wasn’t mentioning Wales, where Labour run the devolved government.

But, Rishi Sunak also – while making that political point – tried to suggest it wasn’t primarily a political problem.

The challenges the health service face around the UK were driven by underlying factors such as flu and the consequences of the Covid pandemic.

It is undeniable that regardless of their political stewardship the NHS was always likely to have a difficult winter.

But, the scale of the problems asks awkward questions of the Conservatives given their longevity in office, and questions for Labour about how quickly things might change – or not – were they to be in government at Westminster after the next election.

Mr Sunak acknowledged ambulance waiting times were bad but argued that the situation was worse in Wales where the NHS is run by the Labour-led government.

“This is not about politics, this is about the fact that the NHS in Scotland, in Wales, in England is dealing with unprecedented challenges, recovering from Covid, dealing with a very virulent and early flu season, and everyone is doing their best to bring those wait times down,” he said.

“Because of the extra funding we are putting in to relieve pressure in urgent and emergency care departments, because of the investment we are putting in in ambulance call handling, we will improve ambulance times as we are recovering from the pandemic and, indeed, the pressures of this winter.”

The Labour leader also used Prime Minister’s Questions to raise the case of Stephanie, a 26-year-old woman who died waiting for an ambulance.

“As a dad, I can’t even fathom that pain, so on behalf of Stephanie and her family, will he stop the excuses, stop shifting the blame, stop the political games and simply tell us when will he sort out these delays and get back to the 18-minute wait?” Sir Keir said.

Mr Sunak said Stephanie’s case was “a tragedy” adding: “People are working as hard as they can to make sure people get the care they need.”

Keir Starmer gave the example of someone suffering from chest pains and worried they’re having a heart attack ringing 999 at 12:03 (the time he asked his question at PMQs).

He said: “If our heart attack victim had called for an ambulance in Peterborough at 12:03, it wouldn’t arrive until 10 past two. If they were in Northampton, it wouldn’t arrive until 20 past two. If they were in Plymouth, it wouldn’t arrive until 20 to three.”

The example he gave would fall into a Category 2 ambulance call which covers serious conditions such as chest pains. The target to respond to these calls in England is 18 minutes on average.

His timings are supported by the latest figures for average Category 2 wait times for different regions of England.

In the East of England (Peterborough) the average wait was 2 hours and 6 minutes, in the East Midlands (Northampton) it was 2 hours 16 minutes and in South-West England (Plymouth) it was 2 hours 39 minutes.

Rishi Sunak responded by saying Sir Keir hadn’t mentioned Wales where ambulance wait times “are even worse than they are in England”.

It’s very difficult to compare the two countries on this as ambulance calls and data are measured differently in Wales but what we can say is that ambulance waits there are at historically bad levels (as they are in England).